EPISODE 14 OF THE MARKETING SOLUTIONS PODCAST: BOOSTING YOUR SALES WITH CONVERSION RATE OPTIMISATION
Sonya:
Today, I am sitting down to talk with my work husband, David Hyman, although I call him Nifty. He's been pestering me to be on the podcast for about six months. Kidding, sort of. Anyway, we met years ago when we were both working for a not-for-profit and we bonded over our mutual dislike of the place. Actually, when we first met, I really didn't like you, did I?
David:
No, you were a bit cold, but I sort of persuaded you to accept me for who I am.
Sonya:
Yeah, no, I think you came good in the end, won me over. And now your my go-to for all things agency-related. So you've since moved on from the not for profit and you've been at multiple big digital agencies in Melbourne. Can you tell me a little bit about the size of the clients you've typically worked with over the past three years or so?
David:
Yeah, sure. So, I mean I've worked for different agencies with different clientele and obviously, different levels. I've worked with some really entry-level SEO stuff, you're-
Sonya:
Oh, sorry, just for the listeners, what does SEO stand for?
David:
Search engine optimization. So, obviously, trying to improve your visibility on Google, which is a pretty hot topic I guess for most people as some people really believe in it, SEO as a service, and others don't. But as an agency, you're getting people in there that are coming in who just want to dabble in that. And then I'm working for agencies that are full service that offer every service available through digital marketing with clients that are large scale national companies or even international companies. So I've worked with a whole range of people from small to big.
Sonya:
Yeah. Great. So you've actually carved out a bit of a niche for yourself in a space that was really unknown here in Australia up until recently, I'd say. I reckon, what, the last 12 months, it's been gaining a bit more traction?
David:
Yeah, definitely.
Sonya:
Yeah. So most agencies you've been with though have had a strong focus on SEO or search engine optimization, which essentially means being found on Google, but you've moved towards a space where once that's under control and they're getting that traffic from Google organically, you focus on actually converting people on the other end. So this is something called conversion rate optimization or CRO. So there's a lot of acronyms being thrown around. But can you just explain to me in super, super simple terms, what CRO or conversion rate optimization is and how is it different from search engine optimization or SEO?
David:
Yeah, of course, I can. So conversion rate optimization, as you said, is something that I'm kind of unknown and a bit underutilized in Australia. The process of CRO is basically in absolute basic terms is to increase the amount of website visitors that take a desired action or something that we call a goal on the website. So, for example, if you have a lead generation website, that could be somebody filling out a form on your website, or that could be signing up to a newsletter, maybe clicking your phone number to call you on a mobile phone. Whereas for like an e-commerce website, it's pretty straightforward, it's somebody making a transaction. That's the goal that everybody wants. They want to make revenues.
David:
So the reason that conversion rate optimization differs from SEO is that SEO is looking to become more visible on Google, which means that you increase the amount of traffic that you have and you're trying to appeal to a bigger audience. Whereas conversion rate optimization is actually trying to target your existing audience and trying to make you convert better with them so you're utilizing that existing traffic that you have as best as possible and not trying to go and gain further traffic from a particular traffic source.
Sonya:
Yeah, and I mean they kind of work hand in hand, don't they? Because I think the problem I see with a lot of small businesses is that they think, "Oh, well I'll just be seen on Google and that will result in more customers." But if you've got a crappy website that doesn't convert, just driving more traffic that doesn't do anything, you're just spending money to get people on your website, essentially.
David:
You're completely right. Somebody gave me an example ages ago about SEO, which is you wouldn't put a billboard in your basement so you wouldn't put a beautiful looking website that converts nicely and not get any traffic to it. But on the flip side, you also wouldn't push a bunch of really good traffic to a poor looking website that's not going to convert because they do the exact same thing. They're not going to get you a result. So you need to do both. You need to bring quality traffic to a website, and then you need to make your website as convertible as possible so that quality traffic takes some form of action for you.
Sonya:
I think this is why a lot of small businesses feel really burnt by SEO agencies. It's not necessarily the SEO agencies fault, right? They've done their job, they're getting the traffic to the website, they're getting the rankings. It's just that the website doesn't convert on the other end. So my question to you is, do you think that if someone is investing in SEO that there really needs to be the CRO component too?
David:
Sort of. So I guess there's a lot of variables with that. So a lot of e-commerce websites are now built on different back ends. So I'm sure people out there would've heard of Wix, or Shopify, or Squarespace, or whatever it is that you're using. And a lot of these websites, particularly Shopify or like a big commerce, they'll have templates already. So those templates are designed knowing that they will convert to a certain level. Oh, sorry. A lot of customers don't even consider their conversion rate optimization because they already have a website that converts to an extent. So that's why the focus is always on, "Well, I need traffic, traffic, traffic because even if I'm converting at less than 1%, I'm still converting. So I just want to push as much traffic possible to it."
David:
But what really should be taken into consideration is a full analysis of, "Well, if my conversion rate was above 2%, for example, that means I would've doubled the amount of people that I have converting on the website, plus if I'm improving the traffic." The traffic doesn't have to be from SEO, by the way, we're also all doing potentially Google Ads or we're looking at social media ads. Whatever the traffic source is, it doesn't matter, all of them will be converting at different rates and you need to try and aim to improve the conversion rate of all of those there.
David:
So yeah, you're completely right. You need a bit of a hand-in-hand strategy and the old school thought of just doing some SEO, putting some SEO magic on the website and making more money, it doesn't exist anymore. You need a fully integrated digital marketing strategy to get the best results.
Sonya:
I know. I feel like digital was so much easier like five years ago, you could literally run an ad, drive someone to a website, and they would convert. It just doesn't work that way anymore. But I think a lot of business owners are in that sort of mindset and mentality around digital marketing like it's a quick fix, just put up an ad, it'll work. Unfortunately, we're not living in that world anymore. Competition is just so hard. There's so many providers out there. It's just not a reality. Sorry, you take on a new client with the agency, right? What is your process for CRO from word go? So what would you start with? I mean, it's going to be different for e-commerce versus service-based business but generally speaking, where do you start?
David:
Yeah, I mean there are some really good conversion rate optimization agencies out there and everybody has a slightly different method. So what we do is we take a lot of time on the auditing side of things. So you're completely right. Although e-commerce and lead generation websites are quite differ from one another, the data that we look at is pretty similar. So I'll quickly go through the six main areas that we look at when we audit. Technical analysis, that's looking at like page speed, the device performances, how you're performing on each web browser, if there are any bugs that are in the back end, so if you say any data trends that are sort of pointing towards a bug on the website, or just any alarming technical aspects that we want to review and we want to improve and optimize.
David:
We look at heuristic analysis, which is talking about like friction points, distractions, motivations and relevance on a website. So that's when you visit a website, what's distracting you from making your desired goal? What's motivating you, and how can we utilize that and promote that even better? Is the content relevant? Is the path and the behavior flow for the user as optimal as possible? And that's mostly looking at the aesthetics of the website. We look at web analytics, so that's a little bit more like data accuracy, having a look at any data trends, and segmenting the audience into the particular categories that we need to to see who's performing best and who needs improving. We do some heat mapping and mouse tracking, which I'll get into a bit later, but that's analyzing the click and mouse movement on a website from new users and then you can look at session replays to get a better understanding of what the users are trying to do on the website.
David:
We look at user testing. So we normally get remote users who have a relevance to your products, or somebody who's in your industry, or is your target audience to have a look at the website. We'll give them some clear instructions and get them to have a navigate around the website and then they'll provide their feedback. And then we also do qualitative surveys, which are normally just like an onsite poll. Or, we can have a look at your live chat transcripts, and we can get some more data about frustrations or concerns or even some of the highlighted points on the website that again, we can utilize to get the most out of conversion. So based on all of that analysis, that allows us to create some actionable insights, which means that we can then create a hypothesis, which then leads us into the testing phase, which means that we can sort of come up with a resolution that we think is going to work and then we can start testing that and see how that performs.
Sonya:
Okay. So my question to you is if you are a brand new business who has a new website or if you're a business that is just not getting much traffic to your website, does this stuff work? Like, what do you have to analyze? Are you really going off sort of gut instinct and past experience in that kind of situation?
David:
Yeah. I mean, a lot of CRO analysis comes from experience. So when you're dealing with somebody who's been researching this for a long time, of course, they're going to have some idea of what's going on, some of the trends that are just happening in the industry. But I think a lot of people are really worried to do their own CRO analysis or do their own testing simply for that reason. They think that they don't have enough traffic. You can start testing on a website with any amount of traffic. It doesn't matter necessarily about how much is coming through. I mean, there are some really technical phrases that we use in CRO like statistical significance where we need to get 95% statistical significance to make sure a test has been proven right, but you need a humongous amount of traffic to make that work.
David:
What we need to do is we just need to bring it back down to a really basic level, which is test some really little things on the website and then just have a look at how your data is comparing to maybe like a 30-day period. So for example, you might have a particular colored button on your website because you're trying to match your branding or something like that. We all know for a fact that green is normally like go and red is normally like no. So if you have a red button somewhere on the website, it's more than likely that people are going to avert away from the red button and more likely that they're going to click green. So something that's really easy to test could be just the color of the buttons of your main call to actions on the website. And that's a really easy test that you can do. Most website editors will be able to allow you to do that quite easily yourself so you don't need any web development experience.
David:
And then if you've got some kind of analytics, whether that's Google analytics or some analytics in the backend of your website, you'll be able to test 30 days prior and 30 days after you've made that change and you'll be able to get an idea and a reaction from the audience of how that's performed. So there are little, tiny things that you can do at all stages of your new business, even if you've just started out. You just need to make sure that you've got a little bit of accurate data to play with.
Sonya:
And I guess the analytics is set up properly as well. Because something I come across with small businesses all the time is that they actually don't have analytics set up properly. They're not looking at their numbers. So how do you know if something's working if you don't have that information? So I always recommend making sure you've got that set up from the very beginning of your website launching.
Sonya:
Okay. So what we're talking about here essentially is split testing, right? So that comes into play with CRO massively. I feel like the word split testing or the term split testing is such a buzz word and digital marketing. What does it even mean? Is there a proper way to do it? Do you have to be set up with a system that will send 50% of the traffic to one version and 50% to the other at the same time? Or, can you do a split test where you change say a button for one month and then have it a different color for the next month? Do both sort of apply?
David:
Yeah, it's a good question. So split testing is exactly what you just mentioned, which is sending a certain number of your audience to one version of a website versus the other website, so A/B and you're split testing them between one another. The way that A/B split testing traditionally has been done is you do test the 50% of the audience to each version of the website at the same time. The way that I mentioned is kind of like a bit of a hack job of it where you can get 30 days data previously and 30 days data afterwards. I'd only recommend that for small websites that don't have much volume. For proper A/B split testing to get a real idea of whether or not your new website version is performing, you need to do it through an A/B split testing tool.
Sonya:
What's an example of a tool that you can use to do that?
David:
So Google Optimize. So hence why I'm putting a lot of emphasis on Google Analytics being correct because Google Analytics speaks to a program called Google Optimize. It's completely free. It has a widget editor on it. So that means that you can go to your website and it'll allow you to change copy, color buttons, elements of your website, delete, open up. You can do what you want on there through the editor or free on the actual tool itself. And that means that you can actually choose what percentage of the audience you want to send the new website to versus the old. I mean the most basic version of it is 50% of the new 50% of the old. Then what that will do is it will give you a bunch of metrics through engagement, or conversions, or whatever you've set up in Google Analytics and it'll tell you which one's performing better, which allows you to choose the better-performing campaign to go forward.
Sonya:
Awesome. Okay, so let's move on to another buzz word here, the word funnels. Does this come into play when you're looking at a website and restructuring things to improve that conversion rate?
David:
Yeah, of course. So funnels are a really interesting part of conversion rate optimization as most of the time, you're not actually directly testing a user's funnels. But they do obviously have a massive impact on the marketing strategy and therefore, which kind of traffic is coming to the website.
Sonya:
So just quickly, what is a funnel?
David:
Yeah, I was going to say for those who aren't super familiar, so a really basic explanation is that the funnel is certain stages of a buyer's journey to take action with your brand. So the most simple way of identifying a funnel is you have bottom of funnel, mid-funnel, and top of funnel. So the further down the funnel you go, you're getting the more intentful customer that wants to make a purchase or wants to make a action on your website. Whereas, at the top of the funnel, you're looking at more of like an awareness and education stage, which means people are just identifying with your brand and as they go through the sales funnel or the funnel through marketing, they become more and more likely to make a conversion.
David:
So the reason that that's so important for conversion rate optimization is that if you're pushing a lot of your marketing through a branding campaign, let's just say through like social media, that's going to be a lot more top of funnel and therefore, you're going to get probably a lot less convertible traffic coming to the website, especially if you don't put like a clear call to action or you're not offering them an offer that will entice a purchase. If this is just clearly branding, you're going to get a lot of traffic than interested to see who you are, but they're not really interested in converting at that point and therefore, your conversion rate is going to drop. Whereas, on the flip side, if you have a particular traffic source that's right at the bottom of the funnel that's ready to convert right there and then, obviously, they're going to lead to a transaction, which means you conversion rates improve.
David:
So funnels are really just talking about the traffic source that comes to your website and then depending upon where they are in the funnel, it will either help or hurt your conversion rate. So that's something that we have to deal with every time we do a conversion rate optimization campaign. We just have to see where that current marketing spend is going towards, where they fall in the marketing funnel, and if we can, we will try and encourage them to come further down the funnel. Because, at the end of the day, we want conversions to make the conversion rate look better.
Sonya:
Okay. So what about things like retargeting ads? Is that something that falls on to CRO? Because, at the end of the day, it is something that improves conversion rates, right? So say someone signs up for a CRO service, that's not necessarily part of it. Is that right?
David:
Yeah, correct. So retargeting can go either through Google or can go through social. Again, talking about the funnels, retargeting is really, really bottom of funnel because we're talking about people that have already visited your website who are now being retargeted or remarketed to so, therefore, they're more than likely interested in the product because they've already been there before. So a retargeting audience is often going to have a really, really good conversion rate and therefore, we try and encourage a lot of people to be doing retargeting ads because they are very convertible. In saying that, as part of a conversion rate optimization service, it's not a part of it. We don't offer the retargeting service within that package as well. So it's something that we can steer our customers towards.
David:
It actually kind of leads into something that I am annoyed about with the conversion rate optimization industry. That acronym that we're talking about or that term, CRO, is what was sort of founded when we were talking about conversion rates. But what we do is a lot broader than that. What I'm actually trying to bring into this industry is BRO, which stands for business revenue optimization. The reason I want to go down that path is because your conversion rate can fluctuate with any traffic source that's coming to your website, but we impact so many other things. We impact the cart size. We impact the traffic sources that are coming to the website. We impact something like an email database. We can definitely have a massive impact on that. So the old-school conversion rate optimization strategy is completely different to what we do now. So what we're going into with all these different traffic sources is trying to increase the business revenue overall and that involves a whole lot more research than just looking at conversion rates themselves.
Sonya:
I think that is what I'm sort of seeing in the, I guess, model that my agency is moving towards as well as that it's got to be a holistic approach. At the end of the day, clients want increased revenue. Often, it's a number of different factors that impact on that. You can't just do one thing such as be ranking on Google better and expect massive results. So I like that term, BRO. I've never heard that before.
David:
I'm trying to [inaudible 00:20:00]. It'll take some time.
Sonya:
Yeah. Okay. We'll push it. "Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen." Do you have any examples of this working, and what were the results? And don't just give me some fluffy numbers and say, "Oh, we doubled their percentage of CRO and doubled their revenue." Because I know that it doesn't always work like that. You know I get the shits with you having those conversations. Give me some meaty examples and not just potential revenue. What does the bottom line actually looked like?
David:
Yeah, absolutely. I was about to say to the audience, I'm someone who does do that. She calls me out on most of my fluff so I'm going to try and get to the point here.
Sonya:
I reckon I call you out every single day.
David:
So I'm going to get a really, really good one for you. I've got a perfect example that's been the last three months that I've been working [crosstalk 00:20:52].
Sonya:
Excellent. Hit me. Bring it on.
David:
I can't tell you the name of the company but a big door handle, gate handle. They create safes.
Sonya:
Random.
David:
Yeah, very, very weird niche. But awesome, awesome business and a lovely person to work with. So we did an audit. We did everything that I mentioned above, and I wanted to prove to this client that we could have a direct impact on their revenue. So we had about eight or nine recommendations that we wanted to implement and he was kind of like, "Ah, look, I'm not super sure on the whole process." So I said, "Okay, how about this? I'll implement three of these for you, completely free of charge, and if I achieve what I've set out to achieve you..." Which, between us, was 30% increase in conversion rate, "You can start paying as a client." And he said, "Fine, that sounds completely fair."
David:
So the three changes that we made to his website were we removed their homepage slider. So for those of you that have a sliding banner on your homepage, here's some advice, please delete it. Please. I know they look really pretty, but sliders actually destroy conversions. The reason behind this is because, for example, he had four slides and all of them would just the same image with a different colored door handle and they had no call to action on them and it was just rotating through.
David:
So firstly, nobody could click on them. Secondly, we're looking at the same thing just slightly different over and over. It produces cognitive overload, which means that people are looking at something, getting overwhelmed, and they're not going to be able to make a decision. So what we did was we changed that slider to just a still, single image. We put the same door handle, just one of them, and then we convinced the client to put up a 40% off all products sale or up to 40% off with a prominent call to action button that led to their sales page. So that was the first change.
David:
The second change we did was the client had what we call unique sales proposition. So those are the things that differentiate you from your competitors. It might be fast delivery service, Australian manufactured, whatever it is. He had those sitting at the bottom of his homepage. So only about 20% of his users, according to our heat mapping, were actually seeing his point of difference. So what we did is we promoted that right up the top just below the menu header so that all of his audience can see that and we can provide some social proof and a bit of trust.
David:
Then finally, what we did was on all of the product pages, he didn't have any payment icons below his add to cart button. So you all would've seen it on an e-commerce website before, there'd be like a Visa, a MasterCard, an Amex, Afterpay, whatever it is. But by adding these, you create another level of trust with your customer and they understand that you take all standard card types and that you're able to transact with those online. So that just provides that little bit extra. Remember, what we're trying to do as an e-commerce business is get somebody's credit card details, which are some of the most important pieces of information. And I need to do that without meeting you through an online store. It is really difficult. So you need to promote as many trust elements to your website to make people do this. So those were the three changes that we did.
David:
So I looked at this data this morning, which is great and good timing, obviously, knowing I'm coming on this podcast. But this has led to an increase of 34% in conversion rate, which means that they've now had 32% more transactions in the last three months. That means that they have increased their revenue by 47%, which means they have made exactly $92,104 extra in revenue that they wouldn't have had before.
Sonya:
Woohoo. Everything you're saying here is things that people can really implement themselves. So just to recap, no sliders on a home page. I read a stat this morning that said that 70% of small business websites don't have a strong call to action. So adding a call to action, super, super important. Bring out your key points of difference on your website, as well. So really you're looking at the whole user experience of a website and unique selling propositions, as well. So making sure you've got them up front on the website so people can see, adding any trust indicators that you can. So things like your payment icons, secure payment gateway is that kind of thing, as well, super important. So I guess there's three things that people can do right now. Do you have any other quick tips and tricks to increase conversions? What can we all do on our websites to improve conversions?
David:
Everybody loves these because they just little quick wins. I don't think you should be doing any of these without proper testing, but I do have a few little tricks up my sleeve that I know work across the board.
Sonya:
Yeah, give us the quick wins. Come on.
David:
All right, page speed, it's so important. The average load speed in Australia at the moment is about 11 seconds for each website.
Sonya:
What? No one's going to stick there for 11 seconds and wait for it to load. We're so impatient.
David:
It's crazy. I can't believe how many websites are out there that come to me and they just haven't looked at this. So Google brought out a stat the other day that said, "For every second that you load over six seconds, you lose 7% in conversions." So that means the average website in Australia is currently converting at 35% less than they should be. So really quick win, go and optimize your images, make sure that they're the right file size, fix your cache, ensure that you've got all the elements of your page speed up to scratch. If you don't know how to do it, reach out to a web developer and pay them the money because trust me, it is super worthwhile. So that's number one.
Sonya:
Hang on, just on that note before you move on. I'm going to get my web developer on the podcast, but something we've been talking about lately is that people go and buy these WordPress themes and install them and they're drag and drop, but they're so heavy with plugins and all these elements that have been added that essentially it slows your site right down. So it might look beautiful, but if it's slow, someone's not going to sit there and wait for it to load. All right.
David:
Absolutely. Even on that point, WordPress is probably actually one of the better template builders. At least you're going to get a reasonably easy one to work around to be able to get that six-second load time that I'm talking about. Probably the biggest one that I've seen the problem with is Magento. Magento is one of the clunkiest back ends for e-commerce websites. If you're running a Magento store, you'll probably need a Magento specialist to help you with that. But I mean, because I've got so many apps in the backend, it's always a really, really big load time. Just try and get it down as low as you possibly can.
Sonya:
Yeah. All right. Point number two?
David:
So utilize your search bar for e-commerce. On average, visitors that use the search bar convert at four times more than visitors that navigate through the website organically. So what you need to do is if you identify in Google Analytics that your search bar is converting better, you need to make the search bar bigger, more prominent, you need to make it bold. If you can, make the search bar sticky in your menu so that people can use it at any time throughout their purchase because-
Sonya:
What do you mean by sticky?
David:
So when you're navigating through the website, the header actually follows you. So the idea behind that is that I can go to the search bar at anytime throughout my experience on the website when I'm stuck. And that means that somebody who's been trying to look for a product, let's just say for 10 to 15 seconds and can't get to it, they're next backup is going to be, "Well, I'll just quickly type it in this search bar." And more than likely, they're going to find it easier on that search bar, which leads to them getting to the product quicker, which leads to more chance of converting. So utilize your search bar as best as you can.
Sonya:
Amazing. Tip number three?
David:
I have my final one, which is more of a lead generation websites because I think CRO is very skewed to e-commerce. But for lead gen, it's also really important. So talking about sticky, you need to make sure that you have a sticky header, again. Which, again, means that it scrolls with you as you scroll up and down on the website. But make sure that you have a clickable phone number in the top right-hand corner of the website. This is super, super important because-
Sonya:
It has to be on the right-hand side? Is that sort of where our brains are trained to look for?
David:
Yeah, I mean that's where most people identify with where the phone number's coming. If you've got a really different template that doesn't allow you to do that, at least somewhere central on the header would be really important. But normally, the top right is where people are looking for the phone number and it needs to be a clickable go. So when we go back to Google Analytics, you can make it so that when people click on a mobile, that's actually a conversion for you. You need to make sure that that's set up properly because everybody that's in lead gen is going to be happy getting a phone call, unless you've got a really automated business, and you can change that phone number for a call to action, for example.
David:
But most people are happy to pick up the phone because they want to speak to a customer, it makes it easier for them to convert over the phone. But everybody is looking for that phone number to call, especially if they've visited four or five pages and they're ready to make that transactional to get in touch with somebody. They need to have that phone number prominent in front of them the whole entire way. So those are my three biggest ones for people to implement.
Sonya:
Amazing. I think at the end of the day, it sort of does come down to common sense and looking at your own website as if you've never seen it before. So is it easy to navigate for people? Does it load quickly? What's the user experience like when someone lands on your website? So don't assume that people are going to understand everything. You've got basically seconds for people to make sense of what's going on on your website or they're just going to leave.
David:
Exactly. I think once you take away your own personal bias to your website and you get some people looking at it who may be relevant to your product and you actually get their feedback, you'll probably find out a lot more than what you think. The great thing about CRO and A/B split testing and all of this data is that it removes any bias. So I don't make any decisions anymore. I might make an assumption and say, "I think this is going to work better than that." But unless I've tested it and actually proven that that's what is the better winner or that's the better experience for the user, I can't actually justify any decisions I make with websites going forward.
David:
I think people need to take that back seat approach and say, "Well, I'm probably too close to this. I've seen it every single day of my life. Let's ask some customers, or some family, or some friends, or potential customers and get some feedback." That's probably what you need to start just so you can get your head around, "Maybe my website isn't perfect." Trust me, there's so many things you can do to any website out there.
Sonya:
I think that's the thing. I think what a lot of people get hung up on, and this comes to all aspects of marketing, is does it look pretty? That seems to be their primary focus. It's not focused on the actual results generated. So you might have graphics or things that you think look amazing or your website might look beautiful, that doesn't necessarily convert sales at the end of the day. That applies to everything. It applies to graphic design, your social media marketing, your brochures. At the end of the day, we all want extra revenue and sales. So looking at what is causing those sales to happen rather than being attached to how pretty something is, I think is a really good reminder for all of us.
David:
Exactly.
Sonya:
Awesome. Well, Nifty, thank you so much for coming on and having a chat to me about CRO. I think probably the best place for people to find you, you're a bit of a LinkedIn fiend. So David Hyman, H-Y-M-A-N, go stalk him on LinkedIn and connect.
David:
That's the one. Make sure you guys share, and like, and listen to these podcasts because Sonya's doing a great job.
Sonya:
Ah, thank you. Alrighty, I'll talk to you later.
David:
See you, mate. Bye.