EPISODE 22 OF THE MARKETING SOLUTIONS PODCAST: HOW TO MAKE FACEBOOK ADS WORK FOR ECOMMERCE
Sonya:
Hey guys, today I'm here with Tom foster who is an absolute eCommerce Facebook ad guru. Now Tom and I have worked together on a couple of client projects over the last maybe 18 or so months, and his results are absolutely incredible. Whenever I get stuck with a campaign, Tom is my go to guy. So I'm so excited to have you on the show today, Tom.
Tom Foster:
I'm grateful to be here, thanks for having me.
Sonya:
So why don't you tell me a little bit about your journey, because I know that you back in the day ... I say back in the day, it was probably a few years back now. You used to focus on really generating leads for service space businesses, but now you're focusing on eCommerce. So can you talk to me about what you were doing with service based businesses, and why you made that switch?
Tom Foster:
Yes, cool. So I've been in, I guess, the marketing industry game, whatever you want to call it, for the last three to four years. I sort of started out with seeing a need for local businesses, and generating leads. And so I started working with local businesses anywhere from chiropractors right through to gyms, dentists, and really helping them generate more leads for their business.
Tom Foster:
I think over the course of six months doing that, I'm a reasonably driven, results oriented, person. I felt like I was doing a lot of the hard work on my end, but the clients who I was working with weren't doing an incredible job of closing those leads, and for whatever reason they came back on myself. So I, I guess, at the same time sparked an interest with drop shipping and eCommerce, and I had a dig myself at a drop shipping store, and just found a passion, and a love for drop shipping. I guess that sort of evolved into finding a skillset that was reasonably lucrative in the market today.
Tom Foster:
So I transitioned away from doing leads and then moved into the eCommerce industry. I've probably been doing that for about two and a half to three years now. I've worked with some pretty great clients, and something that I've gone from knowing a minor bit about, right through to developing a real passion for working with eCommerce friends, and being able to grow the revenue, and all the other things that come with that. So, yes, that's a little bit about my journey.
Sonya:
Yes, fantastic. I mean I know that here at Kiss Marketing we work a lot with service based businesses, local businesses, and I absolutely know the feeling when you're working your arse off and you're generating these leads and campaigns, and they're just sort of not coming to the party. I feel like there's a lot more variables at play when it comes to service space, local businesses, versus an eCommerce store where almost that human element is taken out of it to a degree. That said though, I feel like maybe when you first got back into eCommerce, the landscape was very different to what it is now. Can you tell me about the evolution of eCommerce and online advertising over the last few years?
Tom Foster:
Yes, absolutely. I think the word drop shipping has become something that you either learn to love or hate when you're in the eCommerce industry.
Sonya:
Can you just tell people quickly what drop shopping actually is? There might be some people that don't know.
Tom Foster:
Cool, drop shipping essentially is a method of being able to sell products, and I guess there are three parties involved with drop shipping. One is the supplier or manufacturer, and that's usually someone found on Aliexpress or DHGate. The second party is the person who creates the website and then the third party is the customer. Essentially what drop shipping is, the middleman is the second party, the person who creates the website, creates it for something. And for the sake of this conversation, let's talk about hair extensions. So hair extinctions on AliExpress might be $10, the person on the website marks that up to $25, $30, $40 and then markets that product to the customer. Now the customer goes to the website and they purchase through the website, that sets off a notification through some automated software that's set up that the person who is the manufacturer then sends the product directly from China to the customer. The middle man, the second party, the person who's created that website, is able to take a profit margin without needing to necessarily touch any of that inventory.
Tom Foster:
So I guess just to back up what I was saying, drop shipping has become something that people either love or they hate. I think the reason for that is because it really has been something that has transformed the eCommerce industry like we know it today. So if I'm thinking about the evolution of eCommerce two to three years ago, people weren't hugely familiar about what drop shipping was. So they would find products popping up on their newsfeed, and as a result of that they would purchase that only to realize that it might take a month to six weeks to come from China. Now because of drop shipping and the way that it has caused the customer to, I guess, double think the way that they'd go about buying now, what it's really done is it's meant that it's gone from being enough to just put the right product, in front of the right customer, at the right time. Two and a half years later in 2020, now it's more about taking customers on the ... the phrase I use is a customer journey. So it's actually about building an element of trust with the customer through to the point where they feel comfortable enough to be able to purchase.
Tom Foster:
So a huge, huge buzzword in 2019 and 2020 is influence marketing. The reason why influencer marketing is so much benefit for people who are trying to sell products now is because you're able to leverage an influencer, to then build trust with potential customers, because they are someone who is esteemed on social media. People now look up to these people, they're now promoting a product, and as a result, there are a lot of sales taking place.
Tom Foster:
So as a result of all that I've talked about, I guess the dynamic of eCommerce marketing has just transformed over the last two and a half years. So it's gone from, as I mentioned, being able to put the right product, in front of the right customer, at the right time, now to being more about building a relationship with that customer, taking that customer on a customer journey, really helping to build trust. If I can use an analogy to sort of represent what I'm trying to say, it used to be appropriate to propose to someone on the first date, whereas now in 2020 it's more about dating that person, courting them, really getting to know them through to the point where you then feel comfortable to be able to drop a knee and propose to them. Does that make sense?
Sonya:
Yes, and I love that analogy, I use that when it comes to even organic social media and selling online, all the time. You just wouldn't walk up to a girl in the bar and kiss her, you got to get to know her first. So yes, I love that. Okay, so it's changed a lot and it sounds to me if we bring it back to technical terms, it used to be about the bottom of the funnel, delivering that product in an ad to someone who's actively looking, right? So, that's bottom of the funnel, they're in hunt mode now. There's a whole lot more that you've got to do at the top of the funnel, this sort of brand awareness, building a relationship, which is often can be really hard to track and quantify the results from that. But then you're using Facebook ads to push them down this funnel. Can you talk to me and explain a little bit more about how you're doing that at the moment in 2020.
Tom Foster:
Absolutely. Well, statistically speaking, there is 1 to 3% of people right now on social media who were looking to purchase. Which means that 97 to 99% of people who are currently scrolling through their feeds on social media aren't actually looking for a product. So to be able to just try and put a product in front of them, and [inaudible 00:09:09] them to purchase, you might very often appeal to that 1 to 3% who are actually looking to purchase. Whereas everybody else you're going to strike out, you're going to completely miss the opportunity to be able to market well to them.
Tom Foster:
So now it's, as I mentioned, become more about building trust. So if we speak about some campaigns that are being run today that are actually about trying to, I guess, peak people's interests in specific products or services that are offered, there's a few things that I think about. One, it has to be engaging, whether that is through something strange that catches people's attention, or simply through something that is humorous. The way people promote things now, it needs to be engaging. Secondly, it needs to have a human element to it and so it can't surely be just about a product and putting that product in front of people. But it needs to have either, a human there that's showing some kind of promotion, what the product shown that is being used.
Tom Foster:
So it needs to be engaging and it needs to have a human element. And then I think, and this crosses over to all different kinds of marketing, but I think it needs a really clear call to action. So people often confuse calls to action as just saying, buy now. Whereas, there are different ways to have calls to action in 2020. I'm thinking about things like counting of logs that you can get people to, to then [inaudible 00:10:39] the interest in the specific product to then try and sell later on down the track. Or it can be about showing people a video and it educates them in terms of the benefits of the product, or something that really helps people identify the way that a specific product can solve the problem for them.
Tom Foster:
There's a lot of different ways to do it but really if you miss one of those three core components I guess it'll fail. So I guess that like top of funnel, that's very ... that's the first encounter, I guess that's like the first date with the customer. When I think about middle of the funnel or bottom of funnel, you'd use that language a little bit before Sonya. Middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel, basically means people who know about your brand and have shown some kind of interest in it, but for whatever reason they haven't purchased yet. So people who are, I guess at this stage of the funnel, it's more about using ways to try and build trust with them. So I think that this is a point that will probably come up a few times in this podcast, but to be able to sell, it really is important that you actually build a relationship with your customer.
Tom Foster:
So there are, like I say, completely different spectrum of things that you can try and do for this. But if I think about campaigns that I'm currently running with some of my clients that really is focused on building trust, one of the things that comes to mind is leveraging influences. I've talked about that already and the importance of that. Another one is really showing the different ways that the products can be used. It isn't just enough to promote a product as such, you've actually got to show the way that it's used, and the way that it solves problems. Another one is just using members' testimonials. People are enticed to be able to purchase when they see other people who have had good experiences, and it's social proof. So there are a lot of different ways to be able to do that, but I guess is that a good kind of representation of what you want in terms-
Sonya:
Yes, I think so, definitely. Let's talk technicalities for a second. Can you run me through the kind of ads and the objectives you're running at the top of funnel, middle of funnel, and bottom of funnel, and then how you're then retargeting from that top of funnel down through. What does that look like?
Tom Foster:
Yes, cool. I don't think there's a one size fits all kind of solution to a question like that. I think a lot of it is dependent on where the business is at. So I can assume that the audience's that are listening to this have some form of interest in eCommerce marketing, but they could be anywhere from, I guess, just launched a store right through to running a multimillion dollar store. But I think there are probably a few, what I would say, foundations that can carry across to all of those different, I guess, demographics that are listening.
Tom Foster:
So one thing that I always make sure with all of the kind of ads that I run is to utilize all the Facebooks data that they have about customers. So Facebook, this might be a shock to people, but Facebook knows more about us than we do about ourselves very often, because there is a Facebook pixel on literally every website that we go to, whether that is a new site or it's a product site, whether that's a blog or some form of social media site. Every action that we take on the internet is now being tracked by Facebook. So Facebook know what we like, we don't like, how often we go and look at things, how interested we are about different things. So then because of that, as an advertiser, we have a massive opportunity to take advantage of, and that is to leverage a lot of the data that Facebook is building about people.
Tom Foster:
So one thing that I always make sure I do with all of my campaigns is to run them all on a purchase conversion objective. So basically what that means is I'm showing ads to people with the intention that we would have that a purchase. So that for me is really important because if I go after [inaudible 00:15:03], if I go after link clicks, if I go after anything else then Facebook's going to optimize for that and it's not necessarily going to resolve the purchase. But I'm always going to go after a purchase because I want to leverage all of that data.
Tom Foster:
The next thing that I'm thinking about when it comes to advertising is the all placements option of Facebook, and so it's a great way to be able to utilize the data that Facebook has, but essentially using that all placements option. So really putting, I guess, the ads in Facebook's hands and saying, look, we trust that you know our customers better than we do, we want you to put them wherever you think is necessary.
Sonya:
That is really interesting, because three years ago I was teaching people to cut out all of sort of those peripheral options because I felt like they weren't getting any results. But obviously something that I'll touch on really quickly and then ... Sorry for interrupting you. Is that Facebook has become more and more intelligent over the last three years. So essentially touching things less gives Facebook the best chance to optimize your campaigns, without you having to select as many different options. Is that correct?
Tom Foster:
Yes, exactly. There are so many different ways to go about doing things like that, but I was the same as you Sonya. I was very stuck in my ways of just going about things and trying to do them, and trying to maintain as much control as possible with all of the ads. I think one of the things that I've had to really learn how to do over the last 18 months is let go of that control, trust Facebook, and when I've gone about doing that, the results have always been better than I could've imagined.
Sonya:
Amazing. All right, sorry, you were saying?
Tom Foster:
Yes, cool. The other way than I think people can leverage a lot of that intelligence or that data, that I was talking about regardless of what company they are, is something called dynamic creative. This is a reasonably new feature to Facebook, I think it's been around for a year or so, but it's only come into a fit for something that is really beneficial over the last six months or so. That is basically an ad where you give Facebook about five different photos, five different [inaudible 00:17:35] lines, five different pieces of copy, and you basically say to Facebook, "Look, we're giving you all of these things, you try and form it, and put them in whatever sequences that you think is best." Then as a result, Facebook will go about split testing things on a reasonably fast process to try and identify what sequence goes best to what kind of customer demographics.
Tom Foster:
So then they start to put these ads together that are far more effective than if we were to go through and manually split test ourselves. Now the real benefit about that too is Facebook will serve you with the results of the dynamic creative testing. So if there is anything that you're thinking, okay, well the cost per click might be too expensive, or the [inaudible 00:18:24] is low for this kind of photo, or this headline isn't resonating the best, you can simply just go through and remove it, and just continue to let Facebook do it's thing with dynamic creative. I could probably go on for days and keep talking about these kind of things, but I'm probably conscious that you have a few other things that you'd like to get through.
Sonya:
No, that's so interesting and so helpful. I think even listening to you with one of my service based business campaigns, I'm thinking, all right, let go of control a little bit more Sonya, let Facebook do its thing. So I'm off to update my Facebook campaigns after I get off this call with you.
Sonya:
Something I wanted to touch on as well, which I think we've already spoken about, but I think I get really sick of people in our industry being like, "Oh look at our foolproof formula. We get results for this kind of eCommerce company." And I don't know about you, but I know that say I'm running ads for a plumber in Melbourne, and I'm running the same ads for a plumber in Sydney, and there's literally no change except for the location, messaging's the same, image is very similar, all of that. I can guarantee you will get vastly, vastly, different results and we need a tailored approach to every single client. Is there a formula that will work for every eCommerce business?
Tom Foster:
For the sake of my time, I would love to say yes, but unfortunately no. I think that there are, like I say, foundational truths when it comes to advertising on Facebook. But there's no one size fits all within any business. What one business really needs will be the detriment to another business, and what is working for someone maybe what causes a whole campaign to fall apart for another. So in short, no, there's not.
Sonya:
Yes, okay. So, obviously I think you and I have had a lot of tough lessons over the years with the kind of clients you take on, and you know that things are going to work for, versus the kind of clients that you don't. When you are looking to take on an eCommerce client, I know for me there are certain things that need to be in place before I will work with someone. For you, what do you look for before agreeing to take on an eCommerce client and scaling with Facebook ads?
Tom Foster:
Yes, totally. This question might not be as relevant now as it was a few months ago, over the course of the last six months to a year I've just taken over running two main accounts owned by one person. So I don't necessarily take on clients now like I once did, but I know that when I used to take on clients, especially high ticket ones, I would always want to commit to something that I knew I could get results for. So the last thing I want to do is them to pay me a retainer, I go about running ads and then six months down the track they've wasted all this money investing in me. I've put all this time into campaigns, but there are no results to be able to rely on.
Tom Foster:
Now this might be a tiny bit of a side note, but because Facebook is so advanced, they're able to tell how much has been spent and how much has been made. As a result of that, they can produce a very clear ROI about things. And so unless I'm able to get an ROI for my client, link clicks don't pay the bills, Facebook likes don't pay the bills, Instagram follows they don't pay the bills. At the end of the day, the money that comes into an account as a result of the Facebook ads are the things that are able to produce cashflow for a business, and able to help a business scale.
Tom Foster:
So when I ... this is a really long winded way of me being able to say what I look for when it comes to the clients I take on. I used to have a six week testing period where I'd go about working with clients, and I'd run the ads for six weeks and if I wasn't able to get a result within those six weeks then I'd say to them, and I was transparent from the beginning in saying, this isn't going to be a good fit. But within that six week period, what I would be looking for is I'd be looking for people who show a high level of interest in the product. I think in the 21st century, there are a lot of lifestyle products out there, but there are also products that help solve problems. So if there were lifestyle products that weren't resonating with the target market, I'd back away and wouldn't work with them. Whereas with products that solve problems for people, that's a little different because you can actually go about through advertising showing different ways that those products solve those problems. It's a much easier way to market.
Tom Foster:
I feel like this is a really long winded way of me answering the question on this. I apologize for taking up too much time, but you're looking for people who are willing to invest. You're looking for people who are understanding of the ROI that needs to take place in the beginning, versus what could take place over time. Then I think on top of all of those things, you're looking for people who are going to trust you. So at the end of the day, I don't know everything, but I can guarantee a lot of the clients who are looking for help, I probably know a little bit more about Facebook than they do. So actually working with people who are willing to trust what you have to say, willing to trust your methods, willing to trust the way you go about things, I think is really important. So when it comes to taking clients on, those are the things that I think of.
Sonya:
Yes, okay. So, I mean I've interviewed someone just before you, totally, totally, different industry. She doesn't do Facebook ads, but something she really spoke about was product market fit. So what I'm hearing you say is that, number one, you've got to believe that the market wants the product. Things like sales previously are going to indicate that. It's very hard to take on a client who is just starting a brand new eCommerce store, that don't have any form of audience. It's going to take a lot longer to start getting that traction and building that top of funnel to get those sales, especially if you don't have a proven concept within the market. So I don't know about you, but I completely avoid taking on anyone that is just starting up.
Tom Foster:
Yes. [inaudible 00:24:53].
Sonya:
All right, something that I always love to ask people is how did you learn this stuff? I know obviously you run a lot of campaigns, you're testing, optimizing all the time. You read a lot, you're continuously learning, but can you mention some of the mentors, and courses, and things that you've done along the way that have given you a great foundation?
Tom Foster:
Totally. I'm a massive believer in self-education. I think in the 21st century, the education ... The education sector, the education of students is failing, and I don't want to go on too much of a political rant because this is something that I'm passionate about that. I'm a massive believer in self education, now some of the courses that I've invested in over the last three or four years, in the beginning phase, Sam Ovens was someone who played a pretty big part in my journey to getting started. He's a Kiwi and doing some great things around the world. And very similar to drop shipping, when I mention the name Sam Ovens you either love him or you hate him, but Sam Ovens is my guy. I'm a day one fan of him, so he's played a big part.
Tom Foster:
Ezra Firestone is someone who I speak really highly of, and he's been someone who I've leaned into his, I guess, Facebook [inaudible 00:26:20]. Even in the bigger sense, his marketing advice holistically. As well as a guy called Tim Bird is someone who runs a pretty massive agency, and is probably who I would say is the leader in Facebook advertising worldwide, and he's somebody who is not necessarily the sharpest tool in the shed from a communication point of view, but when it comes his ability to actually test things, and learn and things like that, he's world class, he's the best there is.
Tom Foster:
Then I guess I've taken all of these different mentors perspective on things, and I've gone about testing them for micro clients, and then as a result I've been able to form my own, what I would say, methodology around things. Then I think one of the biggest and probably wisest investments that I've made is bringing on a personal mentor for myself by the name of Dan Bolton. He's someone who has given me great direction about business, and really helped me to grow in the areas that I was once lacking in. I think through investing in someone like him I've been able to learn from his mistakes, as opposed to learning from my mistakes, which I can assure you Sonya wouldn't be many.
Sonya:
That's fantastic. I've just made a little list here for everyone. So, if anyone's wanting to check out these different people that Tom has mentioned. I'm exactly like you, I'm a big believer in self-education, and again, not going to go off on a political rant but I feel like unless you becoming a doctor or a lawyer, a lot of university based education dates so quickly. It's funny, I've even got a mentor of mine, she was one of my university lecturers, and she gave me a job at the uni while I was still there and she even said to me if the course has a textbook don't do it, because it's going to date way too quickly.
Tom Foster:
[inaudible 00:28:24].
Sonya:
I think so. Well thanks so much for your time Tom. I'm very excited, Tom has just told me that he's moving to Melbourne so that will be fantastic. I'll finally get to meet him after 18 months of being internet friends. Where can people find you if they want to know more about you Tom? It sounds to me like you're kind of booked up client wise, but hey, if people want to follow your journey, where can we find you?
Tom Foster:
Yes, probably Instagram is the best way for that. I'm not massive on having a social media presence, but Instagram is the place where it's probably less about business and more about life. But for people who, I guess, want to follow the journey and see me move across the world, you can find me on Instagram.
Sonya:
Excellent, what's your handle?
Tom Foster:
Tom Foster and then three underscores. It used to be Tom Foster Indian, but then I realized that if I'm moving to Australia, I sort of need to change that. So I tried all of these different handles and the three underscores was the one that worked the best.
Sonya:
Excellent. So Tom Foster and a big underscore line essentially. All right, thanks so much for your time Tom. I appreciate you coming on the podcast.
Tom Foster:
Wonderful, thanks so much for having me, see you later.
Speaker 1:
You've been listening to the Marketing Solutions Podcast with Sonya McIntyre Reid. Don't forget to get your hands on our awesome freebies that will get you on your way to marketing success. Head to kissmarketing.com.au/free.