EPISODE 49 OF THE MARKETING SOLUTIONS PODCAST: BEING A LAW-ABIDING BUSINESS ON SOCIAL MEDIA
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Hi, everyone. Today I am joined by Tegan from Social Law Co. I actually came across Tegan on Instagram, of all places, which is very exciting. Tegan, when I saw that you actually specialize in law around social media, I thought, "Oh my God. That's the woman I need to talk to."
Tegan Boorman:
Oh, thank you.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
So thank you so much for joining us today.
Tegan Boorman:
[crosstalk 00:00:48] from home.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
So why don't you tell people a little bit about your business, how you got started? How did you end up niching down into this area?
Tegan Boorman:
Sure. So I am a corporate commercial lawyer and have been for the past 13 years. A lot of my clients through the years have been in the retail space and tourism, and because of that, a lot of the queries that I started to get over the years were around collaboration and working with influencers and teaming up with other businesses for the sake of promotions and for growing audiences. I guess as social media became more popular, the questions started rolling in thick and fast round it. And because of the type of clients that I had, it's something I sort of started to focus on a little bit more.
Then fast-forward a few years, I had two children and decided that I wanted to work for myself and sort of had to really check in with myself and go, "Well, where do I want to focus on?" I knew I didn't want to be a general corporate commercial lawyer, and I'd spent many years focusing more on the retail industry and structuring and general commercial agreements, terms and conditions, intellectual property. So I knew that that's where my sweet spot was. Then with the rise of social media and all the questions I was starting to get around it, and then looking around overseas and in different jurisdictions, this was starting to become a real issue for people in terms of the legalities around it. So I thought, "You know what? I'm going to take all the experience that I've had over the years, and I'm going to put it all into this particular niche that's a real interest area of mine," and that's really how it got started and I sort of haven't looked back since.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Oh, I love that so much. So I guess the big question is what do we all need to know when it comes to social media and law in Australia? Could we all potentially be breaking some laws without realizing it at the moment?
Tegan Boorman:
Absolutely. So I guess the first thing is, if you're signing up to a platform like Facebook or Instagram, your first point of call would be to familiarize yourself with the terms of use on that platform. So if you're planning on running social media competitions, or if you're planning on working with influencers, or collaborating in some way, make sure that that's the first point you look to and make sure that the way you're doing it's not straightaway breaching the terms. Because, what's the point in growing a significant following if your account just gets disabled by Facebook or Instagram and gets completely deleted? Then all of the work that you've done is for nothing. Plus, you've ended up in a breach of contract situation or worse.
The second thing is, if you're running competitions, for example, because of the way Facebook and Instagram are now, it's very easy to share content across both at the same time. So they have different rules for each platform, which doesn't make things easy. So the way that you can run competitions on Instagram is not consistent with what you can do on Facebook. So if you post up a competition on Instagram and you auto share that through to Facebook, it then becomes available on Facebook and you can be inadvertently breaching Facebook's terms of use by running a competition and asking entrants to do certain things you're not allowed to do on Facebook. So I guess making sure that your strategy around competitions, around influencers, is not inadvertently making you breach those terms of use.
Then on top of that, if you are collaborating with a third party in any situation, you should always have a contract between you. So if you're teaming up to run a joint promotion, you're going out to an audience and you're saying, "I'm going to do this and this business is going to do this." But what happens if they don't end up holding up their end of the bargain? Who's left with an unhappy entrant of a competition because they didn't get what they were promised as part of the entry fee? There's so much around that that is important to be aware of. I think it's very easy to get it wrong, and because social media has sort of risen so fast, we're trying to backfill at the moment what you need to do around it in terms of the law and when you're contracting with third parties, to make sure that you're doing it properly.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Okay. That is news to me that Instagram and Facebook both have very different terms of use.
Tegan Boorman:
Yes.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
In my head, because Facebook purchased Instagram in 2012, I would have thought they would have been quite similar. So if we go back to the competition example, what can you do in a competition on the Instagram versus Facebook?
Tegan Boorman:
So, for example, tagging friends. So when you put up your competition, you obviously set out different ways that you can enter the competition. So on Facebook, they want people to have a good time. They want people to not be sort of getting tagged in content that they're not interested in. Everyone's got those friends that every time they enter a competition, you're constantly the person that's tagged and it can get a little bit annoying. So on Instagram you are able to tag someone, ask them to tag people in the comments in order to gain an entry. On Facebook, you're not allowed to do that, for example. So, that's just one example of things that you can do on one that you can't do on another.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Yeah, right. Okay. Really interesting to know. So a good alternative on Facebook then, would be to say, "Like the post and share it," rather than tag someone as an entry?
Tegan Boorman:
So you can't even ask them to share on their own timeline to enter. So it's a little bit more complicated on Facebook.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Yeah, right. Okay. But you can still, on Instagram, ask someone to tag someone?
Tegan Boorman:
Yes.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Okay.
Tegan Boorman:
Correct.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Gotcha. There you go. All right. Now, when it comes to sharing a third party's content or using a third party's content, particularly on Instagram, what are the legalities around that? Because I know a lot of accounts I have seen will take someone else's image and then give them image credit. Is this technically allowed?
Tegan Boorman:
So a lot of people will do this knowing that the other business, or thinking that the other business, won't have a problem with it because it might direct traffic to their account, and then that might be another way to find them. In some cases you might be lucky and they may not have an issue with it. But in other cases, and you'll probably find it's specific to, and in particular things like photographers, where they usually would get paid for that sort of usage of their content, you are, in every situation, best to go to the person who owns that intellectual property and ask them whether or not you have consent to share that image first.
So just actually taking a screenshot of it and then posting it, uploading it yourself and referencing them back is not them consenting to you using that image in that way, because you are benefiting from that. In many situations they may require a fee for that. So you're always on safer ground to go back and request permission to actually use that image.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Gotcha. Okay. I'm going to throw another scenario at you that I have had come up with clients in the past. Say you are a flooring company, for example, and you install floors for a builder. As that flooring company, you hire some subcontractors to fill that work. The subcontractor then goes and takes a photo of the floor and claims it as their work on their own business Instagram. The builder gets annoyed because they've hired the flooring company to do the work. Then the flooring company gets annoyed because they've paid the subcontractor under their brand to do the work. Is the subcontractor in the wrong to be sharing that work on their own Instagram?
Tegan Boorman:
And they've actually done the work, are you're saying, in that situation?
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Yes.
Tegan Boorman:
The subcontractor?
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
They've installed that work, but under the big flooring company's banner. So they've been paid to fulfill that work. What are the rules around that? Are they within their rights to talk about that work that they've done?
Tegan Boorman:
It's a little bit of a complicated one, that scenario, and you'd be pressed to... I mean, you'd see it a lot in different types of contracts more so than builders' contracts. If you're sharing a little piece of your own work and you've taken a photo and you've said, "This is my work," technically they're not wrong. They're not saying anything that's wrong in that scenario. But where you might have an issue is the contract that existed between them.
So if you're intending on using content in a certain way, it really comes back to the contract that you have between you and the other party, and as to who owns the intellectual property and how it can be shared. But in that scenario, it sounds like they've taken a photo of work they've personally performed and they're using it almost like a photography company might use an image that they've taken for somebody else and putting it in their portfolio of work. So, that's a little bit of a complicated one.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Gotcha. Okay. So if you are a beauty business that does brow tattooing, here's another example, and you have employees, then you should look at having some contracts drawn up that say-
Tegan Boorman:
Absolutely.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
... they take photos of the brows, if they then leave your company, they cannot use that as examples of their work.
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah. That one, so if you are planning on putting up photos of somebody else's face, you would obviously be getting consent from your customers as well. So your client intake form, you would be setting in there, "Do you consent to us taking photos and using it on our Instagram page?" for example. You would be getting that consent.
So if your employees are then going and using it, that's an issue because, for one, your employees may not know which particular clients have actually provided their consent. Some of them may say, "No, I don't want photos of my face on Instagram of me getting a brow tattoo," for example. So, yes, you should definitely have agreements with your employees as to what they can do. That's outside, really, of their realm of their employment.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Do you recommend companies now, with their employment contracts that they have, some kind of social media policy [crosstalk 00:11:04] as well?
Tegan Boorman:
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Okay. Okay.
Tegan Boorman:
Social media is becoming such a big thing now. There should always be policies around it for employers. We don't actually specialize in employment law, but around the policies for social media, I think that's important. Even just around how long employees are spending on social media and if they're doing it on behalf of the business, or are they doing it in their lunch hour? There's a lot to talk about in a policy in relation to social media for an employee.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
So much has changed, hasn't it? It's-
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah. It's a whole new world.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
It is. Let's change the focus for a second here and talk about your business specifically and how you got started. I'm really curious, how did you get your first client?
Tegan Boorman:
Funny enough, a lot of my first clients were people that already knew me, and that's probably the case for a lot of people. They saw that I had gone out on my own and they hadn't previously worked with me in other businesses, but they wanted to support the business when I started out on my own. They were starting up their own businesses and they came to me through that. Then I guess it's sort of through social media, the type of work that I do, I do get people. A lot of my clients, I find, tend to follow along on Instagram for a little while first and they tend to be high engagers of our content. They tend to be the ones that are looking at the stories, they're liking posts, and then they might reach out and ask a question about what it might cost for an agreement for an ambassador agreement, for example, or an influencer agreement, or they want some Ts and Cs for their website or something. That's sort of more how they're coming to us now. It's more through digital marketing.
We are actually based on the Gold Coast, but most of our clients are not on the Gold Coast. So we have a lot of clients in Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth. They're all around Australia, really. So local advertising isn't really relevant for us, but we do get the word of mouth situation as well for clients that we've previously worked for, or through marketing agencies that have found us through social media and they've reached out to me, and we've had a chat, and then they've referred through people after that. So, yeah, it definitely has changed over time.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
I love that. My next question was going to be, how does that differ to the way you get clients now? But you've really embraced the digital marketing space and, as I mentioned at the start of this interview, that's absolutely where I found you.
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
I think the fact that you've niched down as well. I immediately went, "Oh my gosh. That's for me. That's what I need." So I think that's a real testament to the power of niching down as well.
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah. I have spent a lot of time on that, to be honest. So when I first started this part of the business, well, this brand, we really looked at, "What is it that we do? Who do we want to be doing it for? And what are we focusing on?" We didn't ever plan to be everything to everyone on purpose because social media and everything that comes with it is so specialized and there's so many moving parts to it and it is ever changing so quickly. So it is difficult to be abreast of all of that amongst everything else that might come with law. So we just decided, "This is our niche. This is what we focus on. This is what we want to be known for." And now, honestly, this is 99% of what we do.
So I'm so glad that we decided to sort of... It's a difficult step to sort of say, "I'm going to niche right down," because you are sort of saying to yourself and to everyone else out there, "There are other things I just don't do. Don't approach me for those things," almost, which kind of feels silly when you're a small business, because it feels like you're turning away business. But if people approach me wanting an employment agreement, or they approach me and they have an issue where they've had a crash and they need a personal injury lawyer, I have such a vast number of other lawyers that I can refer them to. And because of that, they refer back to me for anything that is specific to what I do. So whilst you say no to some things when you niche down, you say yes in a bigger way to the things that you do specialize in, and the things that you know you really enjoy doing. So it was a test that paid off.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Oh, absolutely. I think it really instills confidence as well with your clients that you are an expert in this space as well, which I think is fantastic. I always like to ask people this question, what are you reading? What are you listening to? What are you consuming right now? Have you come across any content that you're absolutely loving?
Tegan Boorman:
I've literally just looked across and I've had this book on my desk for a while and I've picked it up a few times, but I'm so bad at reading for pleasure because, because of the space I work in, there's always so much more to know. So whenever I'm reading, I'm reading about stuff that's relevant to my business and to my clients. But I have the book by Emma Isaacs, Winging It, on my desk. I just love the concept of it. I love, I've got two kids, she's got six kids, which is just insane, that she's managed to build this empire at the same time. I love the concept of the book and I've read through it a little bit. When I have more time, I plan to sit down and read the thing from cover to cover, but it's been on my desk for so long.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Ah, love it. Yes. I've actually got that one on my bookshelf as well and I have not got to it yet. I feel like I just keep collecting books.
Tegan Boorman:
I know.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
I'm like, "That looks great and that looks great," and I get recommendations on this podcast all the time. So [crosstalk 00:16:38]-
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah. So, obviously, I do prefer podcasts because I find it a little bit easier to consume. Like, I can be listening to a podcast while I'm doing something else, while I'm driving the kids to school or while I've got to go out and run an errand. I tend to listen to podcasts a lot in the car or when I'm doing a workout or something. So those are two things that, typically, you couldn't read a book while you were doing them. It's advised against reading a book while you're driving! Or while you're running. It's really hard to focus on the little lines when you're running. But I tend to prefer podcasts for that reason, and also because I tend to pick up a lot of tips around what we do in business from podcasts, or in marketing. Or sometimes I'm just listening to it for entertainment. So I do listen to a lot of podcasts as well.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Excellent. What some of your favorite podcasts?
Tegan Boorman:
So obviously, I've been listening to yours because I wanted to hear what you're doing on this podcast, but also, I like Happy Lawyer, Happy Life with Clarissa Rayward.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Yes, great.
Tegan Boorman:
I like the Brandfetti podcast by Anita Siek. She's always entertaining.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Yes.
Tegan Boorman:
Sam and Courtney Mangan. So they have a few podcasts between them. They've got what's called, I think it's The Spin Studio Network. So they actually host a lot of podcasts as well. But Courtney's got one called She Was The Fire, which is quite good. Sam's got one called Literally Nobody Cares, which is absolutely hilarious. It's basically him just taking the piss out of everyone. So I like to listen to that if I'm feeling a little bit caught up in things and just need to unwind a bit. That's always a bit of an entertaining one to listen to. Beyond Billables is quite good. Being Unstoppable.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
I feel like I follow Beyond Billables on Instagram.
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah. So Mike, I think he was a former lawyer and now he sort of specializes in marketing. So he usually has some entertaining and some relevant people that he gets on there that he interviews. But he's got quite a fun brand himself that I always like to see what he's doing. So I follow him on Instagram as well, but I do tune into his podcast as well.
Being Unstoppable with Caralee Fontenele. So I know Caralee personally. We go to a lot of the same events. She's also a lawyer. She's a family lawyer, and she's got a podcast called Being Unstoppable. She talks about, "How do you build a personal brand? How does it thrive? And how do you sort of make money off that?" So she's quite an interesting one to listen to as well, as well as Stevie Says Social. So Stevie sort of helped with us launching a podcast as well, so that's another interesting...
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Yes, love-
Tegan Boorman:
I know Stevie Dillon. She's a Gold Coast girl as well.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
I love her stuff. I think her brand is just so strong. As soon as you see an ad-
Tegan Boorman:
It is.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
... or a post pop up from her, you know straight away without seeing the name who it is. Love that.
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah. She nails the brand stuff, for sure.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
That is amazing. Thank you so much. I have a lot of podcasts to check out after that. They sound great.
Tegan Boorman:
[crosstalk 00:19:43].
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Now, I would love to know, where can people find more about you? Tell us all of the things, your website, your social media, everything.
Tegan Boorman:
Sure. So across social media, it's the same for all, @sociallawco. So you can find us on all of those. We're sort of more heavily involved in Instagram and Facebook, but yeah, we do have Twitter and those things as well. And LinkedIn, so I'm on LinkedIn a little bit personally, Tegan Boorman. We've got a personal one and then we've also got a Social Law Co LinkedIn that we post things to as well. So, yeah, across all the socials, obviously our website. We've got contact forms. You can sign up for free initial consults through the website and book yourself in. So, yeah, wherever you like to reach out to people.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Fantastic. Well, Tegan, thank you so much for your time. I have a lot of research to do, I think. Just quickly, something else has just come to me, where can people go and find these terms and conditions for terms of use for Instagram and for Facebook if they wanted to dive in themselves and have a look?
Tegan Boorman:
Yeah, sure. So if you go to the front page where you'd go to sign into Facebook, I'm pretty sure you can access them there, just even before you actually log in. Or otherwise, if you just Google, "Facebook terms of use," and, "Instagram terms of use." If there's something in specific that you're looking at for Instagram, so the branded content policy, for example, you can just Google that and it will bring it up. So your branded content policy, for example, talks about if you're doing an influencer marketing campaign. Basically, it ties up all influencers and brands to use the branded content tools. That's where you see, when someone posts about a campaign, it'll have, "Paid promotion with," and it'll set out the details.
Sonya McIntyre-Reid:
Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, Tegan. Really appreciate it.
Tegan Boorman:
No problem.